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3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

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3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by GREENERRRR on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:15 pm

I have been debating this recently... wanna get some feedback...

I know this offense has been around for ages (and there are even many Madden Videos and tips that promote this strategy...) - it is the 3/4 WR set DRAW (aka inside handoff) or PASS offense - and its very simple to run...

U come out in a 3 or 4 WR with 1 RB that has its BASE audible run as DRAW - u call your audibles to have every "wacky" route that there is in 3 or 4 WR sets (that arent covered in hot routes) - u do this so u can have a wider variety of routes to attack the offense (as u can always hot route certtain routes) - so u want plays with double routes or "oddball" routes that u CANT audible via hot route - so u have them available to you...

The offense is very simple...

If the defense comes out in a NICKLE or DIME (more CBs and less LBs) - u run the draw... (helps if u have 1 of those speed RBs where u just run to the outside - outrunning the single LB (no matter how fast he is...) - u dont have to worry about the CBs because only the best teams only have 1 or 2 CBs with high PLAY RECOGNITION (and u just run away from those guys or have WRs with high block rating in there area...) - the draw vs a NICKLE or DIME is an easy 5 yard gain...

after a while the defense gets tired of giving up the easy yards vs the draw - so they come out of NICKLZE or DIME and go in a BASE defense (like a 4-3 or 3-4) - now the defense has a WR that has to be covered by a LB - or he just picks apart the lame zone defense (with the hug inventory of routes u have stored as audibles and hot rooutes...)... The result is very easy completion for big gains...

its pick your poison - run draw vs nickle/dime and pass vs base defenses...

I know this is nothing new - but its so GIMMICKY - I much respect players that dont look for these angles - and just play MANO O MANO - give credit where credit is due - ripptatilman is that type of player... bigbotnu... cirooklyn... cantbbeat.... drMcnoob... ILoveAreolas... Broadway... and i know there is many more (i mean no disrespect if i didnt mention you...) - but if your only way to gain yards is the offense described here - I am going to roll my eyes when i see it... (but then again if you run this kind of offense - opinions of others dont really matter to you anyhow - c'est la V'ie!)
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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by johnnylagz17 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:15 am

By playing run middle ill prevent the draw ,,or pinch ur lbs(1-2) and maybe play the lb to protect both pass and run.

I feel with a running QB it can be exploited the most and feel a little chz but I think it's only boredline chz ..

Like ppl who run the. 4 WR 1 RB rg3 QB option styled QB run or HB run or pass all in one and run the hurry up..

On d ur required (in this madden) to run a spy mcv or blitz spy ect but can't use too many lbs bc they won't catch the QB unless u spread the lbs .. Pinch or leave alone the Dline and maybe drop back CBS ..


Also 3-4 d seems to have an advantage in pass d .. Multi Ds seem to be the best start the game as a 4-3 and okay the run on 1st dwn with an eye on play action Then when they're down switch to a 3-4 bc you can have lbs who can jump so insanely high and play the mid range passes .,, only short quick passes or screens may work,,

And those could get blown up simply by player recognition ... Is that chz or intelligent play?

I feel playing a sim style requires taking away some things THE NFL does .. Pats hurry up 2 TE hurry up O .. Rg3/skins style o and Vick just scrambling then throwing or even the packers bearly passing ..

There's more .. But my point is bc the way this madden was made its all (I assume every has realized this for the most part) about speed .. I mean if u have a slow QB u lose running as an option and a lot of ppl get big momentum plays with a running QB .. RBs I've used CJ2k up the middle and got better results than with power backs Ryan Williams for example or even backs like d Murray,.bc elusiveness and trucking work better than most stats.

Wrs who aren't 90 or can't jump can be tough to throw deep to .. CBS who aren't fast cant be #1 CBS ...heck I had Haden and found ppl to prefer an 80 or less overall CB with 94+ speed.. And I can't argue with them..

This game is one of the hardest maddens yet to judge what's cheating ..I remember it use to be..play like u were a normal nfl head coach and try to keep an even run to pass ratio .. Now idk ..
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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by Hpee on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:32 pm

to me there is no reason for anyone to comment on anyones game. Do to the fact guys do what they do to win.. and greener seriously your run game can be considered a cheese....so i say lets all just play and stop complaining about what someone does or doesnt..we should all man up and play...p.s . no one complains when they when ...

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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by GREENERRRR on Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:23 pm

Hpee wrote:to me there is no reason for anyone to comment on anyones game. Do to the fact guys do what they do to win.. and greener seriously your run game can be considered a cheese....so i say lets all just play and stop complaining about what someone does or doesnt..we should all man up and play...p.s . no one complains when they when ...

how is my run game CHZ? Is it chz because u cant stop the run? pls explainbecause i dont understand...

I explained in very specific detail why i think the 3/4 WR set run draw or pass offense is cheeze - and i think i have a LEGIT arguement based on TRIED AND TRUE FOOTBALL FUNDEMNTALS - (actually the problem is the game doesnt respect football fundementals - thats the problem...) but i didnt call that styl;e of play "chz" and then not explain why - I specifically explain myself and say why it is so...

My RUN game is simple "RUN WHERE THEY AINT" and if guys just countered my run game with BASIC FOOTBALL FUNDEMENTALS they could stop it (and many guys do... which forces me to pass) - but the way i look at it - if i can get 5 yards a run because the defense doesnt know what defense to call to stop the run - WHY WOULD I DO ANYTHING BUT RUN THE BALL? (i would be a fool if i did anything different) - and thats definietly NOT CHZ... thats exploiting your opponents weaknesses -

Afterall runing Dive - offtackle - sweep and counter is as BASIC AS IT GETS - its done at every level of football (and is the first thing u are taught in peewee!!!) - so if thats CHZ - then serve me up a slice of that havarti!
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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by Hpee on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:01 pm

right and why is that frowned on because some players cant stop that play...wats the difference...if u dont adjust , that play will kill you....you are making my point. The point is ,you run until someone stops you , someone will use this play until you stop them...its simple ....you make rules to hender games and call it sim....if u play how you want than everyone should...and your right lets be clear when you play me you run an average of 45 carries and 5 pass att ... but you cool with that.... it pisses me off but i play....i dont call or txt you or curse you out after game i say gg... If its in the playbook why not use it thats all im saying really....

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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by General_Hon on Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:43 pm

Trying to force this to be a fundamentally sound game is something I just had to give up on. All that will happen is what happens in the NCAA, you make more and more rules and those who are ahead of the curve simply find other things that confuse the AI etc...

Meanwhile, more football purist, sim guys at heart, are at a big disadvantage because we are playing in a way that we see on Sundays and are not looking at gimmicks to get the edge.

Wildcat was a gimmick. Read option right now is considered by some as a gimmick (Aaron Rodgers). In Madden, qb contain and qb spy suddenly breaks and they ALWAYS bite on the fake handoff, allowing the qb to sprint left all day. I think it's the qb wrap play that's way more effective.

At the end of the day, the best Madden players, even sim players, figure out ways to shut this stuff down, you just have to be a little more creative because of the fact that it's a video game.

Things we can control with rules that are not debatable - running no huddle all game long even after a sack which doesn't happen in real life

Lagging the game

Quitting

Calling the same play over and over and over in a row, all game

Going for it on fourth down

Deliberately running up the score (calling timeouts late in 4th qtr when you are up by 4 scores just so you can run up score)

Those types of rules are more black and white.

The more rules you make regarding gameplay styles, the more every game becomes a court case.

Backwards pump fake glitch in NCAA 10? and the WR double Pass, remember that one? Madden 10 I think? Those are the types of things that should be banned or criticized. I hate read option/qb wrap guys. I think its cheap and a bit broken in Madden but after seeing Clay Matthews spinning around in the playoffs with that, "Duh, which way did he go, which way did he go," look when he couldn't figure out who had the ball, I guess even NFL pro bowl vets get "glitched".

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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by johnnylagz17 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:50 pm

Yea it is impossible to dictate most of the play book usage unless u take away running with the QB ..and that would kill a lot of ppl and piss off a lot of ppl plus there's play books that use that as a main play.

Running left right , up the middle , counters is just like passing from different formations and doing a similar route just to the left then the right ect..


Can't be a rule but the 3/4 WR sets does make it harder to stop the run but that is actually realistic ..
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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by General_Hon on Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:58 pm

Right, the Bengals were criticized for not spreading the defense to run the ball in more 3wr sets or 4wr sets in the playoffs vs Texans.

It's realistic football strategy, put a WR in the slot to force the LB to widen out, away from the running lane so your HB can get more room.

Also, it is extremely difficult to run between the tackles with the beta version of collision detection engine this year so draw plays are one of the best ways to do so without stumbling and falling all over yourself.

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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by GREENERRRR on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:15 am

Your missing my point - the draw SHOULDNT be as effective as it is - THE DRAW IS NOT A BASE PLAY - it shouldnt be relied on to be used more then 3 times a game - WHY? because it would get stuffed after the defense has seen it a few times...

Only time a draw should be effective is vs MAN defense and when the defense is expecting pass - this is because all the WRs "clear" the LB and DBs down field because they have to cover the MAN TO MAN - (they are looking at the player in their route and not in the backfield) - therefore they dont start pursuing ballcarrier until they hear the DL yell "DRAW!" and by that point they are 20 yards downfield covering a clearing route and are in no position to make a play!

If a team is in ZONE - draw is ineffective because players drop to zone and watch the qb (with their head on a swivel) so they see the handoff and get in a proper pursuit angle instantly - which makes the play very easy to react to (and even less so when its been run multiple times...)

but in madden this doesnt translate - hell even the player "manned" up on the guy running draw (who is normally 'earmarked' to be blocked by a specific olinemen) doesnt even react to the draw! WHICH IS INSANE!

bottom line draw is not a BASE play but guys use it as a BASE PLAY because its effective WHEN FOOTBALL FUNDAMENTALS SAY IT SHOULDNT BE!

John Madden would be furious to find out that the lame ass "draw" play is called more frequently then VINCE LOMBARDIS POWER SWEEP! (but i think he is in his bus and doesnt even know how things like this are so out of touch with BASIC FOOTBALL FUNDEMENTALS in the video game that bears his name!)
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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by Hpee on Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:54 pm

my point is if a player does not open their playbook and use 1 play or formation in a 8min qtr gm is lame ....so players who do this should not comment on what some one else does or how they play....because ur a scary player....my bad ur a conservative player....as some would say.... am I wrong for saying this ..... I just strongly feel some rules are just made to hender a person gm....and help guys that are lazy and don't want to adjust their defense or offense....if it is in the playbook u should be able to use that play...also no one is talking about that youtube zone that a lot of teams are using...but that's fine because everyone is using it...and I already know the response ...what zone ...I don't be on youtube...or be specific give formation...or simply idk wat ur talking about....which is bull....but enough of this guess we all just agree to disagree...

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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by General_Hon on Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:51 am

We have to still accountnfornthe flaws in the game. Draw plays are one of the few effective was to run up the middle this yr. also, the counter weak last yr especially out of strong I close should not have been as effective. Actually any play u run over and over the defense would sniff out after seeing it several times a game but they don't in madden.

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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by weasel_ on Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:53 pm

At the end of the day it is a video game and shoul be played as such. Are there real elements of football in the game yea. Is it a video game that ha things that can be exploited yes. To be the best you have to have a great football mind and a great video game mind. Being inventive is key! Certain aspects of this game can be frustrating. Mostly when I'm on the mad end of an asswhooping I take out my note pad and take notes on the things that felt unstoppable to me. Then guess what happens? I go back to the lab and implement those angles into my game. That's how you get better. That's how you win more games then you loose. My first series is pretty much scripted at this point. I do that or a number of reasons. First to see why you can or can not stop and second to see what I can set up for the second half. This game is very detailed and the more you pay attention to what is going in play calling user tendency wtf the better chance you have to win.

Hpee calling greener run attack boarder line cheese is spot on. All the stuff he complains about and says is cheese he does himself. The subbing of Oline for TE an WR in run sets. The use of motion to ruin any pre snap defensive changes you made then complaining about an audible being called before he snaps the ball is hypocritical to say the least. The expectation that I should be playing flat footed defense is obserd.

Greener has complained to me about my run style and how I like to snap the ball ASAP to avoid the defense being able to set up..... I have the ball I snap ball when it's most advantageous to me not you and your defense get real.

I think that some of the people in this group fail to realize we are competeting here. We ain't babysitting

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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by GREENERRRR on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:30 pm

FYI i only sub in OLINE at TE in obvious run situations - doing so any other time is dumb - having the defense sit on exclsuively run is self defeating vs the run game...

and motion is simpley done to keep the formation consistant - I TRY TO MOTION ALL THE TIME - WHEN ITS IMPORTANT FOR THE PLAY I AM IN RUNNING AND WHEN ITS INCONSEQUENTIAL - if i only motioned when it was a critical paRT OF THE PLAY - that would give away the play! - and if it messes up your presnap adjustments - too bad - u should have accounted for that - and besides it takes a while for guys to run across the field - plenty of time to make another adjustment!

and anyone who bitches about my run game DOES SO BECAUSE THEY CANT STOP IT - which its far from unstoppable - plenty of guys stop it - u have a problem stopping it - simply talk to the dozen plus who can stop easy!
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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by Hpee on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:04 pm

Greener you always miss the point... the point is , if u can play how you want to get a win than why cant anyone else...





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Re: 3/4 WR DRAW or PASS offense - is it CHZ?

Post by weasel_ on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:23 pm

Right to bad for me of your motion messes up my defense

TO BAD FOR YOU IF YOU ARE TO SLOW TO MAKE PRE SNAP ADJUSTMENTS TO STOP MY GAME!

Playing styles is what makes the game fun. I think it's funny that you expect us to play like you do. As if you are the perfect madden player greener.

Just play the game to win.

Respect the game and opponent and everything else should take care of its self. To many rules ruin the fun. Jut stick to the black and white ones like HON said.

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