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I think we need a rule clarification

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I think we need a rule clarification

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:04 am

So I just played Iivan in cantbbeat's league. Made a nice comeback drive with 1:50 left to win by 4. After the game he's complaining that I started rolling out of the pocket. A. It happened on 3 plays. He dropped everyone back in coverage except 2 rushers. I stood in the pocket and obviously no one was open bc I had 4 receivers on 9 men, and one of his rushers was getting close so I ran out of the pocket and looked downfield. Still no one was open so I made a desperation throw to Tony Gonzales (10 yds in front of me) who was covered but he caught it. First down. Next play was similar...only rushed two, I waited in the pocket, no one open, rusher started getting to me so I scrambled, threw for a first down.Last time it hapened was the same situation except this time I kept the ball and ran it 45 yds downfield with MATT RYAN (not exactly the fastest QB...). B. I believe I was the one who first said we need a rule about drop backs and roll outs, but I meant it to be realistic, as in you can't drop back 20 yds or scramble RIGHT AWAY. Now, when Iivan and I talked post-game I explained to him why I had to scramble those 2 times and take off the third, and he understood. But I just wanna make sure that's the rule. We are allowed to scramble in real life scrambling situations right? Because if not, that really kills an already dying game in my opinion.
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by GREENERRRR on Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:52 am

the rule is inteded to COUNTER guys who sprint out of the pocket as PRE-DETERMINED ACTION - they do without a singlke read on the defense - this is clearly different than what has happened here... besides if u rush less than 3 guys - u shpould expect the QB to be able to run around the backfield as much as u want - (u ahve 5 (soemtimes more) guys blockn 2 downlineman... like all of rules - REASONABLENESS MUST ENTEWR THE EQUATION - lookn to extremes to find an advantage is not the reason why we made anyu our rules.. and is just as counter productive as guys who search for glitches...

if u rush less than 3 downlineman - u cant complain abiout the QB moving around behind the LOS - common sense -
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:52 am

yeah i agree, if you gotta get out the pocket do what you gotta do. if my reads are all closed up or man coverage is solid i'm not waiting around all day, i'll run with the qb or scramble rather than forcing a throw. i know when i lose i'll find something the user did and call it lame, i think a lot of us do this until you talk it out or even wait til you cool down. so after i lose, i'll say gg and pretty much not even think about it til the next day to be fair to my opponent.

i played a guy in DW (surfnturf) last night, and with the scores tied at 7 i was thinkin toss left so i brought a prowl blitz overload weak side. he saw that shit and darted the hell outta there instantly and found his slot wr with a 10 yard gap in front of my safety...needless to say it was an easy TD but right after he messaged me and said 'sorry about the rollout'. i thought that was mad cool but in his case he did what he had to do, he avoided the blitz and made a good read...so there ARE times when rolling out is absolutely necessary.
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:20 am

Exactly, I just wanted to make sure it was clear to everyone though. There are times when rolling out is completely necessary, like in surf's situation, even though the play calls for a designed pocket pass (legal). Opposed to a situation where a play under no duress rolls out right away to get an impossible angle on a throw, or wait for their speedy receivers to outrun slow AI (illegal). I was just worried that some players might take a no rollout rule too literally, so when they go from nano-blitzing on running situations to dropping everyone in coverage on passing downs, and then get mad when I take off for 20 yds with my QB, they can't call "cheesing" on me (This wasn't Iivan, but I can see it happening in the future). I don't typically look to run with my QB, but I'm gonna have to start doing so now, because it seems like everyone is playing up on the run and then dropping almost EVERYONE into coverage on passing situations.

Speaking of, Falcon next time we play I need to work on my ground game. For some reason in my Non-drafted Franchise I can run the ball successfully, but in both my Fantasy drafted ones I've been getting crushed lately. I need some tips or some shit bro, idk if it's cuz I'm holding sprint right off the bat or what, but I can't seem to find the hole, or when there is a hole my back can't get to it enough. Also having a problem when players user control the LB...they usually get in unblocked (you've done it a few times, nothing illegal in my book) and stuff the run. I just need to know A. how to make sure they get blocked or B. how to avoid that shit....and maybe C. how to do it Very Happy
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2 clarifications needed.

Post by mblammers on Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:41 am

1. Can I get a better description of the IOR? For quite a while I hadn't seen one. I think I might have witnessed it last night when I played Huffinator. Does this sound like an IOR?

I kicked off down the middle.
Opponent had control of a blocker on the line and pulled him back towards the center.
It looked like he had a center return called.
Kick returner ran maybe ten steps hard toward the right hash (not laterally, maybe at a 45% angle), then broke it it hard left (again, not laterally, more like 45%.)

Now, a few days ago, I wouldn't have said this was IOR based on what I had read about it. However, I stumbled into my first return for a TD using the exact same return against GREENERRR, and he said it was IOR.
This coupled with the fact that Huffinator had control of a blocker and not the return man made me suspicious. Although to be fair, it looked like he pulled the blocker back to where he would have gone anyway, so its possible he wasn't actually controlling the player at the time.

Can we get some video on an IOR please? I would think it would be pretty easy to practice and capture on a phone or video camera.

2. Do adhoc scrambles apply to dropping back or only lateral movement? In the same game as above, I called a screen pass but would have to take a sac if I didn't drop back further than designed. I describe more accurately what happened in the governing council section under rule clarification needed, but I would like to know if I am in violation.

thanks

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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by GREENERRRR on Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:44 pm

mblammers wrote:1. Can I get a better description of the IOR? For quite a while I hadn't seen one. I think I might have witnessed it last night when I played Huffinator. Does this sound like an IOR?

I kicked off down the middle.
Opponent had control of a blocker on the line and pulled him back towards the center.
It looked like he had a center return called.
Kick returner ran maybe ten steps hard toward the right hash (not laterally, maybe at a 45% angle), then broke it it hard left (again, not laterally, more like 45%.)

Now, a few days ago, I wouldn't have said this was IOR based on what I had read about it. However, I stumbled into my first return for a TD using the exact same return against GREENERRR, and he said it was IOR.
This coupled with the fact that Huffinator had control of a blocker and not the return man made me suspicious. Although to be fair, it looked like he pulled the blocker back to where he would have gone anyway, so its possible he wasn't actually controlling the player at the time.

Can we get some video on an IOR please? I would think it would be pretty easy to practice and capture on a phone or video camera.

2. Do adhoc scrambles apply to dropping back or only lateral movement? In the same game as above, I called a screen pass but would have to take a sac if I didn't drop back further than designed. I describe more accurately what happened in the governing council section under rule clarification needed, but I would like to know if I am in violation.

thanks


IOR

The problem with saving the footage of the IOR return is that it only shows the end of the play (the replay isnt long enough) - all u see is the returner running into the end zone... -0 i am continung my search to find this return - what i need to do is have some1 do the IPOR return successful - beat his player and instead of running it back for a huge gainer - run out of bounds after he is in the clear... so if any1 plays me - AND SEES ME DOING THE ior KICK RETURN - IF I AM SUCCESSFUL - I AM NOT GONNA TAKE IT TO THE HOUSE - i am just going to run it out of bounds at the 30 (but i am worried about doing this - not being succerssful and guys think they have a license to do the IOPR - because i am doing the movement - will need to set the record straight b4 the game - so every1 is on the same page),,,,

As far as better discroption (in prose) of the IOR - i have done my best here.. I am an educated person (bachelors degree bUSINESS ECONOMICS) - and i believe i express my thoughts well... and my discription of the IOR i have made previouslyis the best i have... sorry

As far as EXTRAS DROP STOPS n a screen pass - THATS ACCEPTABLE - but their is a limit - 7 step drop is a tsnadar drop back (from under center) - in shpotgun - u are 4-5 yards back TOPS - so just make sure your drop back is NO MORE THAN 14 YARDS (which is plenty - and within the rules) - BUT GUYS DROPPED BACK TOP THE 14 YARD MARK EVERY PLAY 9and not just on screens - that would be extreme and worthy of a sanction)....
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by bigbuddah on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:24 am

like greener said the rule only applies to pre-determined runs. if nothing is there after u make read 1 and read 2 then go ahead but designed qb runs should be limited to qb draws only and designed role outs but making a play after having 9 ppl thrown in coverage is just something u have to do floating in the pocket left or right is not scrambling.

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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by dtigertron on Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:59 am

Greener, hit me up on psn. We can play a non-ranked game from friends list and keep trying KR until it works, then save it. I think the confusion in your descriptions is when you say line of scrimmage. Sense we are not used to talking about LOS during kick returns.
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:44 pm

dtigertron wrote:Greener, hit me up on psn. We can play a non-ranked game from friends list and keep trying KR until it works, then save it. I think the confusion in your descriptions is when you say line of scrimmage. Sense we are not used to talking about LOS during kick returns.

better yet, i can record the kickoffs with my capture card until we can get a good example and post it. same with the qb rollout issue. if either you or greener want to do this let me know, or shoot me a message on psn.
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:25 pm

Dude this non-reading of rules is getting ridiculous. I just played protector07 in Vista's league. Started off the game with a long drop back into a scramble, which I let go because I only rushed 3...even though the dropback is illegal. On the next passing play he immediately scrambled to the left, I let it go. Next time he scrambled right, so I messaged him " that rollout is illegal bro", he responds "how so", so I say "read the rules". after we each scored and I kicked to him, he moved a blocker on the return team all the way over and tried to run straight up and shoot left. So I said, "that return was illegal. next infraction you gotta take an intentional grounding." After that he's good. Scored on a long ball and when I paused to make a sub he msged me saying "stayed in the pocket" so I responded "was just making a sub", and then he responds "you've been bitching all game". So he was leading with a little over two minutes left and of course I marched downfield, but only tied it with a field goal. In overtime I got the ball, marched downfield, and scored a TD. Player of the Game Jahvid BEaST picking up 168 and 3 TDs on the ground as well as 5 catches for 72 yds...but I digress. This dude had the nerve after the game to say I Shocked played a BS game and that I Shocked sucked.

Now I know I'm a new player, but I read the rules, why can't anyone else?
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:12 pm

wow cheddah, never heard of that guy (always the case) but he definately needs to read the rules or be booted. good to hear it didn't cost you a win, but vista man you gotta have a word with this dude. no respect for anything we're trying to build on...
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by PaPZ187 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:43 pm

Yeah I been dealing with some of that as well here and there (when my opponents actually respond to my message to set up a time to play).

I dont like to call ppl out during a game, but if I have to I will. Honestly though, it takes 15 minutes to brush up on the rules before you play, most of them are common sense for a SIM league, yet so many have a problem with it.

Usually I send them a text or message after the game (sometimes during the game if I have to and if they give me enough time to send a message) just to give them a heads up that certain things are illegal, and usually it isnt a big deal either. Honestly though, just read the rules and we'll be good, and if its an honest mistake I got no problem giving a pass thats fine, its just the blatant cheesers that get me.

I am hoping personally that this isnt really an issue after Season One in my current franchise (CantBbeat, which is a pretty good league) the main problem I have is with scheduling games with my opponents as alot of them dont have any contact info and when I send them a message on the PSN most dont send one back, thats real frustrating. In season one my teams record is 5-4, the funny part is I am 2-2 against humans, 2-0 against CPU and got the rest SIMMED on me. Its got potential, and by Season 2 I will be expecting alot more real players in my league that want to play there game and schedule a time to play.
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:45 pm

Yeah, calling someone out for rule infractions during a game is something I don't like to do, as the process of messaging them takes up a considerable amount of time for me. But on the other hand with the clock control style I use, a big play here or there that results from a rule infraction can really change the game...even if it's just an ill-gotten first down on 3rd and long. So when I see something, I usually let it pass unless it's absolutely absurd, and then if they do it again or break another rule then I message them. What really pissed me off with Protector was that I waited til he had 3 infractions until I messaged him and then he continued to break more rules, wouldn't take an intentional grounding, and then had the nerve to call me a bitch afterwards. Ultimately it didn't cost me a win but it did make the game a hell of a lot closer than it should have been.
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LOL

Post by videogameprojr on Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:49 pm

yeah,its also funny when u look back at it and remember its just a video game
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:04 pm

i'll posting videos of what NOT to do shortly, so there will be no bending of the rules.
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by Vista3131 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:19 pm

This is hard to interperet Cheddah I know at least from what I am told you have a legit game.

I am not familier with protectors game at all.

He messaged me about your game but what can i tell you.

It is not illegal to roll out to buy time It is not illegal to roll out with in reason. My suggestion is this, If you know they are rolling out I have noticed they always seem to roll out the same way. Send a linebacker from that side and that will take care of that problem in a hurry.
It is very difficult to decide what is right and wrong here because you or anyone says something. What is a problem to you may not be a problem to someone else.

What I do appreciate is you bringing it to our attention we will talk with protector and see what happens like greenerrr says they will be found out if indeed they are not following the rules

Thanks

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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:53 pm

lately there seems to be a lot of confusion, and people playing dumb to what we all thought were pretty clear and easy to follow rules. i made a video today of what NOT to do in regards to the rules in question.

there is now NO need to be hearing complaints about returns, nano awareness and qb rollouts/rocket catching. it takes less than 3 minutes to watch, and everyone will be expected to (mostly newer players) know and understand the rules, shouldn't be any more excuses thats 'i didn't know' or 'i don't even know what a nano is'.

this might get posted in multiple threads, but i want everyone to have a chance to watch it.

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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by PaPZ187 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:13 pm

Thanks for that video bro, now we dont have to deal with the "I didnt know" BS!

Just one question regarding the IOR is that what it really is on the video? When Greener wrote about it he was saying that they actually run to one side, then run at an angle in which they are actually losing yards (going backwards?) then turn it up. The KR you posted looks legit to me, I mean all you gotta do is control one of the guys on the coverage team to force the returner inside or make the tackle, doesnt seem unrealistic at all to me.

There is bad AI and pursuit angles on defense as well, your return just looked like you were going inside then saw a hole to the outside, thats all. IMO its up to the USER to contain the returner. Now from what Greener posted seemed like total BS, but that KR you posted looks legit to me. Just want a clarification, as if someone beat me on that return I wouldnt think twice about it till I saw this video.
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:27 pm

PaPZ187 wrote:Just one question regarding the IOR is that what it really is on the video? When Greener wrote about it he was saying that they actually run to one side, then run at an angle in which they are actually losing yards (going backwards?) then turn it up. The KR you posted looks legit to me, I mean all you gotta do is control one of the guys on the coverage team to force the returner inside or make the tackle, doesnt seem unrealistic at all to me.

There is bad AI and pursuit angles on defense as well, your return just looked like you were going inside then saw a hole to the outside, thats all. IMO its up to the USER to contain the returner. Now from what Greener posted seemed like total BS, but that KR you posted looks legit to me. Just want a clarification, as if someone beat me on that return I wouldnt think twice about it till I saw this video.

if thats legit then i can return kicks 90% of the time just by waiting until the ai commits to the middle. soon as people see them commit they break either lateral or to the outside. point is, you don't even need to run lateral unless you have a fast returnman. i can take those to the house all day doing that...go in, wait for the commit, go out. its too easy...and all the examples were on all madden. i don't think its necessary to run lateral although you can.
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by PaPZ187 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:34 pm

OK just checking, cause from what Greener wrote I just pictured some super cheesy sht. I guess I have had a few ppl try this on me (without sucess) but some parts of the game just plain out suck. The AIs pursuit on ANY play is terrible and can be exploited for the most part, thats why its up to the play to contain and force them inside, IMO.

Either way, its cool. I dont use that "return" anyways, just thought if my opponent did it to me and scored I wouldnt think twice about it being cheese, thats all. I just wanna play SIM football and have fun here and there when I have some time off, and if everyone else is cool with this rule then I am as well.
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:01 pm

Vista, thanks for looking into it. It's really not a big deal to me because I know it's my word against his, making it hard to make a judgement from your end. I just hope he doesn't match up with a new player and do the same things and they fail to report it from either ignorance or because theyre new and don't wanna stir up trouble. Also, I think it's a little shady that he would message you rather than post anything on here where I would be given the chance to refute whatever he's saying.

Also, I know that there's a difference between scrambling to buy time/avoid the blitz, and illegal scrambling. Just to clarify, he only broke the scrambling rule a few times, and the dropback rule once (even though I didn't care to message him about that one given his responses). Then he controlled a blocker on a KR and moved him across the field and did a cut that looked like what is described as the IOR which is two infractions in one.

Again I don't really don't care what comes of this, just thought I'd let it be know that he needs to read the rules, and that he was TRYING to be insulting after the game when I beat him.
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by Child_Please4285 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:06 am

great post only one problem the play where u was showing the moving of multiple defenders really wasnt a "true" nano IMO it was a overload blitz 4 on 3 the rb didnt get to the rusher in time this happens alot in the NFL its the qb responsibility to call a line audible the LT would let the outside rusher come free then get the rb to pick up that rusher and pass to hot read i see alot of complainants about this but that wasnt chezzy IMO i see ppl not read the play dont make the rb block dont audible the line and try to do a 7 step dropback and with 4 rushers on 1 side wonder y a man came free
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by Vista3131 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:45 am

This is all up for debate what is acceptable what is not acceptable, really kind of funny.

He calls it a nano blitz he calls it a overload blitz.

One guy is pissed because someone throws to flat to much.

Another person is mad because he uses too much clock. Another person is mad because the opponent never ran a run play, the next guy is mad because all he did was do run plays.

One thing I have noticed there is a counter to every counter everything is can be beat.

The very thing that makes this a great game to play with tons of different challenges is the very thing we complain about. The last I looked in all the leagues I play No one is undeafeated some how some where they got beat.

I hate playing ranked games You want to know why. It is one reason because they don't do situational things what I mean is they don't PUNT! They are in a punting situation and they don't punt.

I could care less what they run my job is to figuer out how to stop it that is the fun of it.

I got news When I win I Don't even remember what play the guy ran I could care less because I won the game. For all I know he threw to fitzgerald every play but I won, I beat his strategy. But if I lose I want to call somebody and say All that guy did was throw to Fitgerald what cheeze ball throw him out of the league thats not what we want here. What makes the game great is the different challenges..

Maybe I am wrong I don't know but if it were up to me the only rule I would care about is Punting when your suppose to punt, PUNT. Kick a FG when your suppose to kick a FG and Going for it on 4th down when only it is appropriate to go for it on fourth down.

I truely wish a league would work but now that I have been in so many I am realizing that it will never work just make the best of the league you are in but 32 players just playing and having fun doing it never going to happen. Because everyone has different opinions and thats O.K.

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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by Child_Please4285 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:34 pm

You are right Vista most ppl only call out cheeze when they lose the say something is cheeze cause THEY cant stop it!

In my opinion the only nanos is the ones where players come up the A gap, Offensive Line 101 you block from the inside out players coming through the A gap happens rarely in the NFL only when theres a missed assignment
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Re: I think we need a rule clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:23 pm

childplease, it was actually a cover 2 zone i only blitzed 1 guy and hit the qb in less than a second because where i lined the lb's up confused the ol. i don't think that should be legal...if it is, i'm going to do it all the time. same with the IOR, aside from moving the blocker...people seem to think its legal, so again, i'll be doing it all the time. hope no one complains. there is no counter for some of the nano's out there, if you think there is than we might as well allow them...and gl stopping mine.
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