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west coast offense

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west coast offense

Post by bigbuddah on Mon May 23, 2011 7:35 pm

I've noticed that the past few years ppl/players have been getting this style of offense mixed up. The creator of this offense (Bill Walsh) intended it to be a way of moving down the field using all ur weapons and minimizing turnovers. To me, there are only 2 styles of offense in the league. The Pro Style offense and West Coast offense. Personnel is the key ingredient to determine what style u run. In madden, there are pretty much 3 styles. The Pro style (characterized as heavy running teams), the spread (characterized by high 80% shotgun offense), and west coast (characterized by usually undercent attacking flats). Players tend to throw undeveloped routes and utilize the snap and throw tactic to accomplish this playing style. This is not west coast offense. The qb drop back is a fundamental aspect in playing qb virtually and realistically. Not having the qb do a drop back is unrealistic and therefore unsim and shouldn't be allowed in a sim community. Bill Walsh's offense had Montana and Young doing 3 and 5 step drop backs.

The undeveloped routes that are thrown to are an AI issue and should be outlawed also. If u call a play that has a C-route in it but u the C route before the wr makes his cut even to go up field its undeveloped and the AI doesn't react to it. Another example are hb angle routes. Throwing a hb angle route before he makes his cut to finish the route its undeveloped and therefore messes with the AI. Offense like this is not an actual NFL offense and shouldn't be allowed to be utilized in a sim football community environment. This is nothing new to madden gamers. This tactic has been used for quite sometime now. I believe with the removal of the auto-qb drop back (which never worked anyway) that this tactic would be used more frequently in the next installment of the madden series. I find these things aweful, cheap, and cheesey and is 1 thing we should make a ruling on.

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Re: west coast offense

Post by saastar on Mon May 23, 2011 7:51 pm

bigbuddah wrote:I've noticed that the past few years ppl/players have been getting this style of offense mixed up. The creator of this offense (Bill Walsh) intended it to be a way of moving down the field using all ur weapons and minimizing turnovers. To me, there are only 2 styles of offense in the league. The Pro Style offense and West Coast offense. Personnel is the key ingredient to determine what style u run. In madden, there are pretty much 3 styles. The Pro style (characterized as heavy running teams), the spread (characterized by high 80% shotgun offense), and west coast (characterized by usually undercent attacking flats). Players tend to throw undeveloped routes and utilize the snap and throw tactic to accomplish this playing style. This is not west coast offense. The qb drop back is a fundamental aspect in playing qb virtually and realistically. Not having the qb do a drop back is unrealistic and therefore unsim and shouldn't be allowed in a sim community. Bill Walsh's offense had Montana and Young doing 3 and 5 step drop backs.

The undeveloped routes that are thrown to are an AI issue and should be outlawed also. If u call a play that has a C-route in it but u the C route before the wr makes his cut even to go up field its undeveloped and the AI doesn't react to it. Another example are hb angle routes. Throwing a hb angle route before he makes his cut to finish the route its undeveloped and therefore messes with the AI. Offense like this is not an actual NFL offense and shouldn't be allowed to be utilized in a sim football community environment. This is nothing new to madden gamers. This tactic has been used for quite sometime now. I believe with the removal of the auto-qb drop back (which never worked anyway) that this tactic would be used more frequently in the next installment of the madden series. I find these things aweful, cheap, and cheesey and is 1 thing we should make a ruling on.


so what ur saying is??? make an rule that u cant throw to an wr/hb/te before he finishes his route or makes his cut bc it messes with the AI and doesnt react to it?? or im confused... could very well be the 2nd 1... lol

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Re: west coast offense

Post by bigbuddah on Mon May 23, 2011 7:56 pm

Y would it be after he finishes his route??? those routes have developed already..I'm talkin about UN-developed routes bro

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Re: west coast offense

Post by saastar on Mon May 23, 2011 8:04 pm

i never used the word AFTER!! i said BEFORE he finishes his route.. not after the route is finished.. im not that fucking dumb

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Re: west coast offense

Post by saastar on Mon May 23, 2011 8:09 pm

ok let me make an example to clarify what ur talking about.. bc i believe i get it but i am wording it wrong... so say i have an guy that is suppose to run an POST CORNER but before he ever makes his cut towards the post and still running straight i throw him the football.. is that what ur talking about??

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Re: west coast offense

Post by Fr8trainShane on Mon May 23, 2011 8:17 pm

While I think the snap-throw is immensely gay.... I don't think your example of the C Route is a good one. That route, often times is a high risk - low reward for the snap throw. If the Defense is in a Zone, you are looking at a pick...if they are in Man, you likely break free if the Linebacker doesn't adjust...but its a short gain.

The stick routes are classic snap and throw routes, but I'd argue they are developed that way.

I think snap and throw is horribly gay, and if that is your entire offense, then you probably aren't in danger of every being labelled as a Top flight guy anyway.... but I see no way to regulate it.

Like you and discussed, as long as there is YouTube and E-Books....you'll have cheese.

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Re: west coast offense

Post by txboy05 on Mon May 23, 2011 8:25 pm

buddah watched the game i played today against mcnair2wycheck which is what triggered this i believe. this guy was doing snap and throws to his tight end before his qb even took a step back. these were snap and throws on man coverage so they have to be fast as hell. he was throwin the ball to his te on a streak after the guy was literally one yard up field and i guess hoping he would break a tackle and score on me. then he was doing the same thing to cj in the flats, throwing him the ball 5 yards deep in the backfield. its cheap and only guys that have no skills have to resort to things like that and it becomes their "gameplan".
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Re: west coast offense

Post by dnice4455 on Mon May 23, 2011 9:55 pm

i played mcnair in surf i dont know how to explain it any better the txboy but i know what u r talking about. It is mad lame

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Re: west coast offense

Post by saastar on Mon May 23, 2011 10:26 pm

i have played mcnair twice and both times he didnt do snap and throws but maybe once all game.. it might be where he didnt have max protect against ur kind of blitz txboy.. bc with ur blitz u literally have to have 7 man protecting or the qb gets sacked without even getting time to drop back 3 steps.. so mcnair's snap and throws may have become bc of ur kind of blitzes.. the same way phantom use to do snap and throws against ur kind of blitzes.. so no way of playing against ur defense unless u max protect or do snap and throws.. bc like i said i have played mcnair twice, would of been 3 times if his internet didnt go out for 2 weeks, but both times i played him he didnt do but maybe 1 snap and throw all gm.. and both gms were close..

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Re: west coast offense

Post by bigbuddah on Mon May 23, 2011 10:51 pm

saastar wrote:ok let me make an example to clarify what ur talking about.. bc i believe i get it but i am wording it wrong... so say i have an guy that is suppose to run an POST CORNER but before he ever makes his cut towards the post and still running straight i throw him the football.. is that what ur talking about??

Well in that case no. Those routes develope 12-15 yards down field enough to user defend. Most of what I'm talkin about are snap and throw routes and short routes such as hb angles...flats...the C route...and the stick route

The stick route is a good route as long as the wr/te running the stick turns around like the mini hitch route it is designed to be...the stick route is a shorted hitch route

Me and fr8 did have a convo about regulating shit but I mean I think this type of offense the snap and throw is to blatant to ignore and I dnt see grey areas to where ppl would be pissed or try and find..u either do a drop back or designed sprint out and ur fine that's all this is

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Re: west coast offense

Post by txboy05 on Tue May 24, 2011 12:23 am

saastar have u ever heard of MAX PROTECT ? thats when u make ur RB or TEs block to pick up the blitz. if u ask any top player such as FF, JMO, buddah or cp how many times they snap and throw against me they would probably say zero. when someone blitzes u, u are supposed to take advantage of either wholes in the defense or one on one coverage, not take advantage of the AI of the game. i expect you of all people to disagree with everything i say but its coo, u just sound like a hater. anybody that knows how to read a defense will be able to figure out where my blitz is coming from, its not that hard. resorting to cheese because a player blitzes is....cheesy dont u think ? its cause u and phantom suck thats why u guys cant pick up a damn blitz lol pretty much. mcnairtowwycheck was throwing as soon as he hiked the ball, before my guys even took a step on defense. there is no excuse to do some cheesy shit no matter what im doing on defense, especially if im playing you straight up. i bet if someone did it to you, you would be up in here crying like a lil girl
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Re: west coast offense

Post by Rui_F on Tue May 24, 2011 10:12 am

So you were bringing 7 guys on blitzes but don't expect him to quick throw to the only 2 guys possibly open (I assume you were bumping his wr's on the outside). Defenses can dictate offenses and bringing 6 or 7 man blitzes all game is just as cheesy as running the same offense all game, just not against the rules. And people say "but I don't blitz 7 all game" well if you do it the whole 1st quarter people are gonna think you are going to do it all game till you get tired of seeing a te or hb get a quick pass.

if your blitzes look like this then your probably gonna see some quick passes because the blocking ai is alot more broken then the secondary ai.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk9J_oz6Iu0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vamcjN78jKI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftPKTpFVPJc&feature=related

and there are a few hundred more
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Re: west coast offense

Post by Fr8trainShane on Tue May 24, 2011 12:42 pm

Rui, those are obvious nanos....

the 4-4 Inside Blitz can get fast pressure if set up right, and not be a nano however.

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Re: west coast offense

Post by Rui_F on Tue May 24, 2011 1:09 pm

Anything that needs to be "setup" before the play can be construed as a nano (not saying it is) because if you have to move players into position then you are fucking with the blocking AI, that's why there are leagues out there that have totally banned pre-play movement so people actually have to use the play they call like real football.

Not saying there are not one or two blitzes where you will get nice pressure without having to manually adjust players but to get the pressure on a consistent basis the way some people do on here is simple, they are either calling the same plays over and over on DEF, they are setting up nanos, or both, either way its cheese just like having to throw quick passes all game. (but not against the rules, just like quick passes aren't either).

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Re: west coast offense

Post by saastar on Tue May 24, 2011 1:21 pm

yeah i agree RUI.. some can setup there guys with certain movements and get pressure without the qb having an chance to do an 3 step drop back which forces u to do snap and throws.. especially if they are doing it constantly every series on 2nd and 3rd downs... but no way to regulate it just like no way to regulate snap and throws.. so just have to play the game and move on...

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Re: west coast offense

Post by Fr8trainShane on Tue May 24, 2011 1:33 pm

saastar wrote:yeah i agree RUI.. some can setup there guys with certain movements and get pressure without the qb having an chance to do an 3 step drop back which forces u to do snap and throws.. especially if they are doing it constantly every series on 2nd and 3rd downs... but no way to regulate it just like no way to regulate snap and throws.. so just have to play the game and move on...

Saastar, there are 2 blitzes that get pretty fast pressure (none get there before you do a 3 step drop).

The 4-4 Inside Blitz (2 adjustments with line shift, and show blitz)
The Overstorm Blitz, and you don't even have to make an adjustment.

They get pressure, because they bring more blitzers than you have blockers. Thats not a nano, thats football.

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Re: west coast offense

Post by mblammers on Tue May 24, 2011 1:38 pm

I think the snap and throw is just as cheesy as using an inordinate amount of "legal" nanos.

I think it is REALLY hypocritical to do one and then complain when somebody else does the other.

Just saying, "there are ways to stop it" doesn't make it cool. You can eventually counter damn near any stupid tactic if you play against it enough, but that doesn't mean it is SIM.

Snap and throw as a main part of your game plan is not sim.
Running the same blitz over and over is not sim.
Finding some defensive play that brings ridiculous pressure when you reblitz, fake blitz, pinch, sub, etc. etc. etc. is not sim.

You can try to justify it all you want to and say that it isn't technically against the rules, blah blah blah. If you have a play, whether on offense or defense that you know will smoke the AI and result in something that doesn't happen in real life and you abuse it, you are cheesing.

To me, both are like calling no huddle run plays. If you do it more than 2 or three times a game you're either cheesy, or you don't know what SIM means.

The problem, of course, is that the game is flawed, and it is impossible to legislate behaviour that will prevent people from taking advantage of the flaws. So, to a certain extent, you just have to adjust. But from my perspective, you shouldn't be calling people out if your own game relies on similar B.S.

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Re: west coast offense

Post by saastar on Tue May 24, 2011 2:50 pm

Fr8trainShane wrote:
saastar wrote:yeah i agree RUI.. some can setup there guys with certain movements and get pressure without the qb having an chance to do an 3 step drop back which forces u to do snap and throws.. especially if they are doing it constantly every series on 2nd and 3rd downs... but no way to regulate it just like no way to regulate snap and throws.. so just have to play the game and move on...

Saastar, there are 2 blitzes that get pretty fast pressure (none get there before you do a 3 step drop).

The 4-4 Inside Blitz (2 adjustments with line shift, and show blitz)
The Overstorm Blitz, and you don't even have to make an adjustment.

They get pressure, because they bring more blitzers than you have blockers. Thats not a nano, thats football.

i disagree fr8..

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Re: west coast offense

Post by saastar on Tue May 24, 2011 2:51 pm

mblammers wrote:I think the snap and throw is just as cheesy as using an inordinate amount of "legal" nanos.

I think it is REALLY hypocritical to do one and then complain when somebody else does the other.

Just saying, "there are ways to stop it" doesn't make it cool. You can eventually counter damn near any stupid tactic if you play against it enough, but that doesn't mean it is SIM.

Snap and throw as a main part of your game plan is not sim.
Running the same blitz over and over is not sim.
Finding some defensive play that brings ridiculous pressure when you reblitz, fake blitz, pinch, sub, etc. etc. etc. is not sim.

You can try to justify it all you want to and say that it isn't technically against the rules, blah blah blah. If you have a play, whether on offense or defense that you know will smoke the AI and result in something that doesn't happen in real life and you abuse it, you are cheesing.

To me, both are like calling no huddle run plays. If you do it more than 2 or three times a game you're either cheesy, or you don't know what SIM means.

The problem, of course, is that the game is flawed, and it is impossible to legislate behaviour that will prevent people from taking advantage of the flaws. So, to a certain extent, you just have to adjust. But from my perspective, you shouldn't be calling people out if your own game relies on similar B.S.

+1

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Re: west coast offense

Post by bigbuddah on Tue May 24, 2011 2:54 pm

Bringing 6 man pressures and only having 5 blockers is not a nano, that's a numbers game, a mismatch, that's football. Snap and throws are fundamentally wrong. Madden doesn't have smoke screens so snap and throws shouldn't exist. U have to have more skill to adjust to someone blitz besides resorting to doing something like that. In this game, txboy had to blitz because mcnair to whycheck had chris johnson at running back who had over close to 20 carries if I rmember but he did have over 250 yards. If he got caught passing in a running formation that's because he ran the ball a lot. There are ways to stuff a blitz man it ain hard at all. When txboy didn't blitz it was the same thing soooooooo.....I think that ppl need to have restraint on both sides offense and defense. Pressure defense is a style of play..trying to stop someone with a super dominate running back by blitzing is something u have to do and is fundamental. Snap and throws aren't fundamental.

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Re: west coast offense

Post by mblammers on Tue May 24, 2011 3:06 pm

bigbuddah wrote:Bringing 6 man pressures and only having 5 blockers is not a nano, that's a numbers game, a mismatch, that's football. Snap and throws are fundamentally wrong. Madden doesn't have smoke screens so snap and throws shouldn't exist. U have to have more skill to adjust to someone blitz besides resorting to doing something like that. In this game, txboy had to blitz because mcnair to whycheck had chris johnson at running back who had over close to 20 carries if I rmember but he did have over 250 yards. If he got caught passing in a running formation that's because he ran the ball a lot. There are ways to stuff a blitz man it ain hard at all. When txboy didn't blitz it was the same thing soooooooo.....I think that ppl need to have restraint on both sides offense and defense. Pressure defense is a style of play..trying to stop someone with a super dominate running back by blitzing is something u have to do and is fundamental. Snap and throws aren't fundamental.

1st of all, I wasn't talking about that game in particular, and I'm not trying to make this about txboy or mcnair or rui or any specific person, so there is no need to get defensive.

Snap and throws are cheesy if you are taking advantage of the AI (like you describe when you throw to the slant on an undeveloped C-route). However, if someone is lined up in a 4-3 against a three receiver set and it is clear that they can't stop a snap and throw to the slot because their linebacker or safety isn't covering him, what is Unsim about that?
I have seen qb's in the NFL get to the line, see an adjusting or confused defense and IMMEDIATELY throw to the uncovered receiver without a drop back. This is not a designed wr screen, just heads up football.
Now, like I said, I think for the most part, snap and throws are b.s., but just as you claim that blitzes are just part of the game, so, sometimes, are snap and throws.

Besides, I don't think that it is totally honest to claim that the blitzes we are talking about is "just a numbers game." We all know that there are certain blitzes that bring a ridiculous amount of pressure almost guaranteed if the other guy isn't anticipating it. Not every blitz where you bring 6 or even 7 puts pressure on EVERY TIME, the way that certain others do with the right adjustments and subs and reblitz's and whatnot. If you want to claim otherwise, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

Anyone can go to madden-school.com or you tube and learn these "money blitzes". That is not "fundamental football". That is cheese.

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Re: west coast offense

Post by Fr8trainShane on Tue May 24, 2011 4:13 pm

mblammers wrote:1st of all, I wasn't talking about that game in particular, and I'm not trying to make this about txboy or mcnair or rui or any specific person, so there is no need to get defensive.

Snap and throws are cheesy if you are taking advantage of the AI (like you describe when you throw to the slant on an undeveloped C-route). However, if someone is lined up in a 4-3 against a three receiver set and it is clear that they can't stop a snap and throw to the slot because their linebacker or safety isn't covering him, what is Unsim about that?
I have seen qb's in the NFL get to the line, see an adjusting or confused defense and IMMEDIATELY throw to the uncovered receiver without a drop back. This is not a designed wr screen, just heads up football.
Now, like I said, I think for the most part, snap and throws are b.s., but just as you claim that blitzes are just part of the game, so, sometimes, are snap and throws.

Besides, I don't think that it is totally honest to claim that the blitzes we are talking about is "just a numbers game." We all know that there are certain blitzes that bring a ridiculous amount of pressure almost guaranteed if the other guy isn't anticipating it. Not every blitz where you bring 6 or even 7 puts pressure on EVERY TIME, the way that certain others do with the right adjustments and subs and reblitz's and whatnot. If you want to claim otherwise, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

Anyone can go to madden-school.com or you tube and learn these "money blitzes". That is not "fundamental football". That is cheese.

Buddah and I hate this talk awhile ago. You can't legislate Cheese, because there is just so much of it. Not only that, but everyone doesn't see the same things as cheese. As long as there are E-Books, and Madden-school, and YouTube videos, people will think that what they are doing is cheese. You just can't regulate it.

The thing is...the people that are doing this....aren't any good. They aren't any of the top players, and they routinely get beaten. Would it be great to have 32 players that don't Cheese? yes.... but its not realistic.

As for reblitzing, I don't think i've ever reblitzed a player lol... Why would you have to, if they are already blitzing?

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Re: west coast offense

Post by bigbuddah on Tue May 24, 2011 4:30 pm

mblammers wrote:
bigbuddah wrote:Bringing 6 man pressures and only having 5 blockers is not a nano, that's a numbers game, a mismatch, that's football. Snap and throws are fundamentally wrong. Madden doesn't have smoke screens so snap and throws shouldn't exist. U have to have more skill to adjust to someone blitz besides resorting to doing something like that. In this game, txboy had to blitz because mcnair to whycheck had chris johnson at running back who had over close to 20 carries if I rmember but he did have over 250 yards. If he got caught passing in a running formation that's because he ran the ball a lot. There are ways to stuff a blitz man it ain hard at all. When txboy didn't blitz it was the same thing soooooooo.....I think that ppl need to have restraint on both sides offense and defense. Pressure defense is a style of play..trying to stop someone with a super dominate running back by blitzing is something u have to do and is fundamental. Snap and throws aren't fundamental.

1st of all, I wasn't talking about that game in particular, and I'm not trying to make this about txboy or mcnair or rui or any specific person, so there is no need to get defensive.

Snap and throws are cheesy if you are taking advantage of the AI (like you describe when you throw to the slant on an undeveloped C-route). However, if someone is lined up in a 4-3 against a three receiver set and it is clear that they can't stop a snap and throw to the slot because their linebacker or safety isn't covering him, what is Unsim about that?
I have seen qb's in the NFL get to the line, see an adjusting or confused defense and IMMEDIATELY throw to the uncovered receiver without a drop back. This is not a designed wr screen, just heads up football.
Now, like I said, I think for the most part, snap and throws are b.s., but just as you claim that blitzes are just part of the game, so, sometimes, are snap and throws.

Besides, I don't think that it is totally honest to claim that the blitzes we are talking about is "just a numbers game." We all know that there are certain blitzes that bring a ridiculous amount of pressure almost guaranteed if the other guy isn't anticipating it. Not every blitz where you bring 6 or even 7 puts pressure on EVERY TIME, the way that certain others do with the right adjustments and subs and reblitz's and whatnot. If you want to claim otherwise, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

Anyone can go to madden-school.com or you tube and learn these "money blitzes". That is not "fundamental football". That is cheese.

im not getting defensive. i have nothing to get defensive about. i said what i said about this game because it was the thought behind this post and i was giving u background to my post. the post is about how ppl mistaken snap and throw offense for west coast offense when it is not.

"if someone is lined up in a 4-3 against a three receiver set and it is clear that they can't stop a snap and throw to the slot because their linebacker or safety isn't covering him, what is Unsim about that? I have seen qb's in the NFL get to the line, see an adjusting or confused defense and IMMEDIATELY throw to the uncovered receiver without a drop back. This is not a designed wr screen, just heads up football." i clearly said this: "Madden doesn't have smoke screens so snap and throws shouldn't exist"

me and fr8 had a conversation about this "Anyone can go to madden-school.com or you tube and learn these "money blitzes"." i use to be an admin at madden-school.com. i use to make ebooks for them as well so i kno what they are about. that isnt what we are about here. the stuff i did there was purely offensive and they gave me defensive plays to work on to make offensive ebooks. noone of the stuff i did there i do here. i havent been there since about a month before they moved to a different website host. they where on forumotion and went someone else and it kinda died down a lil bit the players werent the same....OFF TOPIC..lol...anyways. the thing that i dont like about a lot of ppl is that they do look at things ppl do and try and make it sim because it isnt against the rules. ppl let someones style get in the head and frustrate them to where they think they gotta do something to even the odds or get back at them. i get caught up in this as well im not immune. what i saw in that game tho was craziness. which got me thinking. im not saying mcnair said this is west coast offense to me. i thought back to where i was having a conversation with someone, forgot who, and they were truely confused and it got me thinking that other ppl must be confused also. it is not hard to block players use a line shift to where u think the pressure is coming from and block it up long enough to get a pass off or role out and make a play. i play txboy all the time. we are roommates so i know. i have to play against this style of defense ALL THE TIME. ppl need to game up, skill up, and not resort to craziness. ur making it seem like blitzings isnt football. snap and throws arent football.

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Re: west coast offense

Post by txboy05 on Tue May 24, 2011 4:41 pm

Blammers the types of snap and throws this guy was doing were not to open wrs and not even on a mismatch. He was sending his tight end on a streak or idk maybe a out route of soumething and throwing him the ball as soon as it was hiked and my defender would just let him catch the ball and run right by him. trust me it was terrible, im not one to complain but that shit was not coo and for the record i never bring 7 pp RUIF. When u bring 7 guys somebodys gonna be wide open and those blitzes u showed are retarded lol i would have been banned from this site if i did any of those.
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Re: west coast offense

Post by Child_Please4285 on Tue May 24, 2011 6:30 pm

Fr8trainShane wrote: As for reblitzing, I don't think i've ever reblitzed a player lol... Why would you have to, if they are already blitzing?
Guy Reblitz for different reasons.

1.To help with overloads its easy to shift a DL have a "weakside" DT in a 4-3 engae a Center and create a oververload with 1 extra rusher. I'm bad at explaining thing's but in to simplify it in Diagram below.

E T T E
T G C G T

The diagram shows a typical 4-3 DL Shift right overload. If u reblitz the DT on the left to engae the C it allows CB,OLB,S basically whoever to rush “Free” from the edge. IMO this is not a Nano, even though u have to setup the play its fairly obvious to see coming and the DL 90% let the outside guy go free which is exactly what a coach would tell his guys to do.

2. Guys reblitz DL guys because they believe that it makes there guys pass rush better (i have no proff weather it do or don't) when running plays that rush 3 or 4 guys

3.Mostly All of the Really good Nano's involve this basically the reblitz attacks the OL better and make it easier to shoot gaps when pass rushing
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Re: west coast offense

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