* Committed SIM play

* we play 12 months a year

est 2009
If you have any issues logging on or registering, see if GREENERRRR is in the website chat (and get instant feedback) or contact him directly at greenerrrr@ps3maddengroup.com
groupme


groupme ID 5302641
maddenfantasydraft.com chat

if you want to chat about league text GREENERRRR at (289)241-4968 and he will invite you to groupme chat

Pocket Rule Clarification

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by sam22smith on Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:25 pm

29) QB are PROHIBITED from doing UNREALISTICLY LONG DROP BACKS AND SPRINT OUTS (on pass plays that designed for being thrown from a standard pocket)... A QB cannot drop back farther than 12 yards from the Line of scrimage... The QB cannot move laterally (as a preplanned sprint out) more than 3 yards outside of the pocket in plays that are designed to be thrown from a standard pocket...

note: The lateral movement does not apply to ADHOC QB scrambles...


This is the rule. As it is written - a player that drifts out of the pocket without sprinting is not in violation of this rule. The rule clearly states sprinting and drop backs.

DW came under attack a bit for drifting out of the pocket with his QB - I did not watch the whole game - but one clip I saw was of him drifting just beyond the hash and throwing a pass. This type of play seems to perfectly legal under the rule as written. The rule gives no grounds to ridicule the play.

It seems that if a player is not hitting the speed burst and sprinting out of the pocket then the rule does not apply. I'm glad the rule is written as such - because a QB drifting out of the pocket while looking down field and ready to throw is very realistic.

I believe the rule has been misread. I personally like the way it is currently written - and think it should be followed but that also means allowing room for QBs to drift our of the original pocket and even throw on the "run" if they so choose. (not sprint and throw)

I recently played a guy who scrambled when I ran zones with 3 rushers and his first read was covered - it was successful and I lost - he was smart - I didn't adjust and it burnt me. But he did nothing wrong - I didn't put anyone in a spy when I should have. After the game I said "why didn't I spy ever? duh" But that's on me. I think some people would cry about this because he scrambled without pressure. But it's not even a rule.

I think we need to re-read the rule and come to a consensus here.


Last edited by sam22smith on Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
avatar
sam22smith
Rookie
Rookie

Posts : 309
Join date : 2010-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by Deathwish22 on Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:17 pm

Thank you.
avatar
Deathwish22
All-Madden
All-Madden

Posts : 1984
Join date : 2010-08-21
Age : 36
Location : Cincinnati, OH

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by kavorka2 on Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:46 pm

Whats the deal with all the recent accusations........dirty bit

kavorka2
Rookie
Rookie

Posts : 203
Join date : 2010-09-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:55 pm

Again, I've said my piece on this. BUT, I'll ask any of you to find me a play in the NFL where a QB takes a snap and just drifts left like that. It doesn't happen unless it's designed. The part of the rule you are referening is there to prevent people from moving outside to create angles and throwing lanes that otherwise wouldn't be there if they had normally stayed in the pocket. IT WAS NOT DONE BY DW ON PURPOSE but that is still the result of what he did. He's not trying to cheat or break rules, but the instinctive movement he took did just that, it created a throwing lane that otherwise wouldn't have been there. I don't remember the specific play, but he rolled left (not in a sprint) and threw a pass to a receiver who broke to the sidelines. The pass went pretty much on a line and hit the receiver perfectly. Had he been in the pocket that lane would have been filled. There would have been a D lineman, LB, and CB all of who would have most likely knocked down a direct bullet like the one he threw. Again, I'm not saying DW is cheesy, unsim, or any of that shit. Because he is one of the most sim guys around. I'm saying on accident, he broke the rollout rule a couple times.

It's really not a big deal to me. I've accidentally broken a rule or two during a game, especially in the heat of the moment. The problem people are guys that are consistently doing it for the majority of the game. DW didn't really do anything wrong in that respect.
avatar
Cheddah_Cheez
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 2648
Join date : 2010-08-10
Age : 30
Location : NJ

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by Fr8trainShane on Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:13 pm

I have no problem with people "drifting". But its not accidental... pushing the stick in a direction takes thought Smile especially since its perpendicular to a drop back Smile lol

If it was a rule, then there are a helluva lot of people that would have to be considered for breaking it. There are a lot of people that drift outside the pocket (without a rush) and then either hit a receiver, or after "drifting" decide to sprint with or without a rush.

There is also quite a few people who immediately take the snap and run with it.....Basically making it a naked bootleg run. Also, not really addressed in the rules.

And the ones that do this, are also some of the bigger names around here....many on the council and/or commissioners of leagues.

I have no problem with it, because after the first time, you pretty much look for it... but if you are going to clarify the ruling, then clarify it in 3 parts.

1) Can you drift?
2) Can you immediately sprint out as long as you don't pass the ball? (basically making it a designed QB run play)
3) Can you scramble if there is no rush (this should be a yes, cuz if you see wide open field, you shouldn't be punished for taking off)




Fr8trainShane
Pro
Pro

Posts : 840
Join date : 2010-12-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:31 pm

im not commenting on this, i see a lot of people drift...and i don't want anymore rules. so long as they don't sprint to the sidelines right after the snap to throw that stupid flag route angle it doesn't bother me. a simple contain would end that anyways.
avatar
falconfansince81
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 2005
Join date : 2010-08-25
Age : 35
Location : Youngstown, Ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:43 pm

I think before this goes any further ANYONE WHO READS THIS SHOULD KNOW THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT. It's a discussion. NO ACCUSATIONS OR ANY of that mess

For the record, I believe the rule is pretty straightforward. If there's no rush, you should be in the pocket (between the tackles). If there's a rush, do what you want. If you wanna scramble with no rush, stay in the pocket for at least 2 reads (about 2.5 seconds) before you go.

So to answer you shane:
1) Not outside the pocket
2) Yes, if you DON'T throw it
3) Yes, but not until you make a 2 reads first.
avatar
Cheddah_Cheez
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 2648
Join date : 2010-08-10
Age : 30
Location : NJ

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by sam22smith on Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:45 pm

The rule is not written that way though. It states dropping back and sprinting out. It doesn't mention drifting in order to create throwing lanes that wouldn't be there from the pocket.

I disagree that QB's don't move out of the pocket in order to give themselves a throwing lane. It will be after one read - but it happens on 4 man rushes where space opens up and the play develops. Doug Flutie made career of this - he had to though. But Rodgers, Roethlisberger - these guys do it now - throw on the run and leave the pocket quickly, after one read sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umd8wYua2e4

Nevertheless - the rule doesn't mention throwing lanes. It is specific to sprint outs and drop backs. Sprinting is acceptable when doing an adhoc scramble.
avatar
sam22smith
Rookie
Rookie

Posts : 309
Join date : 2010-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:56 pm

i think it should. I didn't watch the whole video there, but I watched the first two minutes. He doesn't drift in any of the first 10 throws. In one of them, he steps into the pocket and then slides out and two his right as the rush moves past him. The only other times he left the pocket were on a designed naked PA rollout, and a rollout that was designed (as you can see by the wall the LT and LG make behind him while the C RG and RT all slide left).

QBs are taught to drop back behind the pocket, step up into the pocket to make your throw, then slide out if there is no open receiver to extend the play. You won;t just see a QB just take a snap and start fading left or right unless it's designed. The reason for this is multifaceted: A. Defenders make adjustments to get in throwing lanes that prescripted AI madden defenders do not. B. Fading to a side of the field without the corresponding routes cuts the field in half and makes the job of the defense easier because the liklihood of you throwing opposite, and even moreso completing a throw opposite are highly unlikely, so the D has less work to do.Obviously on designed rollouts you're trying to flood the coverage, so it works to an advantage. C. Fading makes you run directly into the rush in the NFL. In real pass protection, tackles drop and form the pocket, so a QB who took a snap and faded would pretty much fade right into his tackles back, or the rushing end. In madden, pass blockers pretty much just engage the guy in front of him and dont drop, so fading allows you to get out there.
avatar
Cheddah_Cheez
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 2648
Join date : 2010-08-10
Age : 30
Location : NJ

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by phantomshark on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:12 pm

It reads 'sprint' and it also reads 'more than 3 yards outside the preplanned pocket'. Both lead me to believe that it is ok to drift to 1 side or another, and I do do that a fair amount of the time. Mainly to get a better angle on a throw I plan on making, because making a throw downfield and having a LB 15 yards away from the target leaping and knocking it down makes my blood boil.

phantomshark
Pro
Pro

Posts : 671
Join date : 2010-11-26
Age : 50

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by phantomshark on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:16 pm

Cheddah_Cheez wrote:In real pass protection, tackles drop and form the pocket, so a QB who took a snap and faded would pretty much fade right into his tackles back, or the rushing end. In madden, pass blockers pretty much just engage the guy in front of him and dont drop, so fading allows you to get out there.

You hit on something here that works against your agrument. In the real NFL, the line knows the pocket and works on protecting it. There is not nearly as much pressure up the middle as there is in Madden. If you force someone to stay 'in the pocket' strictly, you will have 3 times as many sacks as in a real NFL game. fading one way or another nullifies the unrealistic pressure to a certain extent.

Also, in the real NFL, Ray Lewis is not dropping into a middle zone and knocking down a pass that is intended for someone 15 yards upfield.

phantomshark
Pro
Pro

Posts : 671
Join date : 2010-11-26
Age : 50

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by Fr8trainShane on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:28 pm

phantomshark said:
Mainly to get a better angle on a throw I plan on making,

Thats the point though. By drifting you are creating angles that effectively defeat the AI of the game. In the real NFL the line would adjust to you drifting, and the defenders would as well (especially those playing a zone)... however, in Madden... the defenders in a zone will still just sit there, and your won't be drifting into a rushing DE.

How many plays in the NFL do you see the DE running around the outside on a speed rush and have to come back to the QB?
But in Madden, the DE is never deeper than the QB.

If the pocket formed like it really does in the NFL, then drifting would be almost eliminated, because you'd always move over into the pass rush.

Fr8trainShane
Pro
Pro

Posts : 840
Join date : 2010-12-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by phantomshark on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:32 pm

Fr8trainShane wrote:
If the pocket formed like it really does in the NFL, then drifting would be almost eliminated, because you'd always move over into the pass rush.

Bingo. Not really sure what point you are making. The pocket does NOT form like it does in real life, hence the need to drift. However, real life QBs drift a lot, very often something that looks like a straight pocket drop actually ends up outside the tackles. Whatever, if they ever do make it that you can't move your QB left or right all the fun would be gone for me - you allow user catching but with the QB you have to drop straight back and throw like a robot.

phantomshark
Pro
Pro

Posts : 671
Join date : 2010-11-26
Age : 50

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by saastar on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:35 pm

i personally agree with FF that i dont think we need anymore rule changes.. i think the rule speaks for itself... no need in changing it...

saastar
All Pro
All Pro

Posts : 1077
Join date : 2010-08-30
Age : 30

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by Fr8trainShane on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:37 pm

phantomshark wrote:
Fr8trainShane wrote:
If the pocket formed like it really does in the NFL, then drifting would be almost eliminated, because you'd always move over into the pass rush.

Bingo. Not really sure what point you are making. The pocket does NOT form like it does in real life, hence the need to drift. However, real life QBs drift a lot, very often something that looks like a straight pocket drop actually ends up outside the tackles. Whatever, if they ever do make it that you can't move your QB left or right all the fun would be gone for me - you allow user catching but with the QB you have to drop straight back and throw like a robot.

No you have it backwards. You only have the ability to drift because the pocket doesn't form like the NFL. The fact that you do drift creates a clear AI advantage to the offense, as Madden defenders do not adjust to you moving out of the pocket like they would in real life.

Drifting is basically taking advantage of a programming flaw. Its not more than a spy glitch (it defeats the AI). Not to mention, people who do drift, tend to drift when there is no pressure....

Fr8trainShane
Pro
Pro

Posts : 840
Join date : 2010-12-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:48 pm

there is a way to stop it though...a real easy way, so its not totally cheap to drift i don't think.
avatar
falconfansince81
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 2005
Join date : 2010-08-25
Age : 35
Location : Youngstown, Ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by phantomshark on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:49 pm

I do drift when there's no pressure. I said as much. And I cleared it up before I even played my first game in MG, because I do do it. Are there people who have figured out how to stop me doing it? Yes, several. I'm sure you can too. But the angles of the throws on many routes are so bad if you don't move around, and the fact that LBs jump higher than basketball players, makes it a necessary part of my game, and a reason I have come to value mobile QBs more than pocket passers. Want to outlaw it because you don't do it and it annoys you? Fine, then outlaw user catching because I don't do it and it annoys me (no receiver in the real NFL is going to zig-zag to the ball while it's in the air to throw off the AI, errr, confuse the defender).

Note I am not making this as a real call to outlaw user catches, just to make a point.

phantomshark
Pro
Pro

Posts : 671
Join date : 2010-11-26
Age : 50

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:53 pm

than you might as well take out user defending too, fuck it...lets limit gameplay to no sticks allowed, pass snap the ball and either let the cpu run or press a button to throw and let the cpu do the rest. this is why i don't want any more rules...annoying as drifting is so some, its easily countered and i don't think its a problem at all. the more we nitpick the flaws of the game in comparison to real life the more fun and control we'll end up taking away from playing it.
avatar
falconfansince81
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 2005
Join date : 2010-08-25
Age : 35
Location : Youngstown, Ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by phantomshark on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:54 pm

falconfansince81 wrote:than you might as well take out user defending too, fuck it...lets limit gameplay to no sticks allowed, pass snap the ball and either let the cpu run or press a button to throw and let the cpu do the rest. this is why i don't want any more rules...annoying as drifting is so some, its easily countered and i don't think its a problem at all. the more we nitpick the flaws of the game in comparison to real life the more fun and control we'll end up taking away from playing it.

That was my point FF. Note my caveat at the bottom that I wasn't really trying to outlaw user catches, just that you can't outlaw everything that annoys some people.

phantomshark
Pro
Pro

Posts : 671
Join date : 2010-11-26
Age : 50

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:55 pm

Phantom: For one, 3 yards from the Center takes you just about to where the TE is lined up...maybe slightly past. You shouldn't be drifting further than that. Secondly, madden creates a solid pocket if you let it develop. It doesn't do it as quickly as it's done in the NFL, but it does happen. If there's pressure up the middle then you're free to run anyway. You're only required to stay in the pocket if there's NO PRESSURE, and even then, you only need to stay in there for 2 reads.
avatar
Cheddah_Cheez
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 2648
Join date : 2010-08-10
Age : 30
Location : NJ

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by falconfansince81 on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:56 pm

yeah i was agreeing, sometimes hard to convey a message within text but thats the whole idea...we just gotta cut our losses and play the game for what it is. a video game, BUT there are ways to defend it...same with user catching, so its not something that should deem a rule. trust me...nothing pisses me off more than that super LB jump int off the LOS on a route 20 yards downfield, or a tall wr always catching bombs in octo-coverage while my efforts to user swat are futile...but thats madden lol, the sole definition of driving one crazy.
avatar
falconfansince81
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 2005
Join date : 2010-08-25
Age : 35
Location : Youngstown, Ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by sam22smith on Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:00 pm

Yeah. In real life a QB will slide up and out after the outside rush has gone past him. But it happens after one quick read sometimes. For GB it can be as simple as if a zone has a guy in one particular spot that Rodgers wasn't expecting so he can't hit a quick throw he was planning on his presnap read. So he steps out to create time and a throwing lane. Roethlisberger created a throwing lane in the same manner on the third down conversion that clinched the AFC championship game. This is why GB was running a spy to keep him in the pocket and force him to deal with the lanes they dictated.

I agree that rolling out to one side of the field is a limiting tactic. I personally like when guys roll out dramatically against me. I feel my chances of stopping the pass play increase because it cuts the field in half. I believe madden has done a decent job in implementinging this reality in the game play and therefore no rule is needed to curb it.

The rule uses the term "sprint" which, to me, means hitting the R2 button. I don't think the rule is necessary at all because guys that just hammer the sprint button and run around like jackasses do not gain an advantage in this game - they suck. You may get some lucky plays but you are gonna get picked off a million times and get your ass kicked. To me - this rule just seems creates bitching rather than curbing glitchy or unfair play.
avatar
sam22smith
Rookie
Rookie

Posts : 309
Join date : 2010-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by sam22smith on Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:09 pm

falconfansince81 wrote:yeah i was agreeing, sometimes hard to convey a message within text but thats the whole idea...we just gotta cut our losses and play the game for what it is. a video game, BUT there are ways to defend it...same with user catching, so its not something that should deem a rule. trust me...nothing pisses me off more than that super LB jump int off the LOS on a route 20 yards downfield, or a tall wr always catching bombs in octo-coverage while my efforts to user swat are futile...but thats madden lol, the sole definition of driving one crazy.

If it were up to me. The rule would be this "no running outside of the pocket for the purpose of executing a spectacular catch on a flag route." If I would have a rule about QB play at all.
avatar
sam22smith
Rookie
Rookie

Posts : 309
Join date : 2010-12-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by phantomshark on Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:16 pm

It doesn't say 3 yards from center, it says 3 yards outside pocket, which would mean outside the tackles. Not that I go that dramatically most times. But when I do drift, I've already made my reads by the time I am that far out, if I still haven't found anything, I usually hit sprint and start to run, keeping an eye out for someone popping open before I cross the line. A couple of times a game I'll call a 'flood' play that does call for a rollout, and on those plays I will sprint out, but it's not very often.

phantomshark
Pro
Pro

Posts : 671
Join date : 2010-11-26
Age : 50

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by Fr8trainShane on Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:16 pm

falconfansince81 wrote:there is a way to stop it though...a real easy way, so its not totally cheap to drift i don't think.

No argument, its fairly easy to change your line to stop it....however.... having to change your blitz or rush package to stop something that defeats the AI?

Its fairly easy to stop some nanos... but we still don't allow it right?

Fr8trainShane
Pro
Pro

Posts : 840
Join date : 2010-12-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Pocket Rule Clarification

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum