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4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

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4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by GREENERRRR on Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:59 pm

Currentluy u can go for it if its 4th and inches ANYWHERE ON THE FIELD AT ANYTIME - or if you are past your 40 yard line...

i m ok with the 4th and inches thing - HIGH RISK HIGH REWARD; IF U GO FOR IT 4TH AND INCHES DEEP IN YOUR END - u may get it - but i have seen this play STUFFED IN THE BACKFIELD PLENTY OF TIMES - and when that happens - the other team is scoring for sure on their possession...

BUT

we need to move the threshold to punt from YOUR 40 to MIDFIELD (OR THE 50)... 99% people punt when they are in their end in the 1st half anyways but... Recently in a 1st half of a game -= a player converted a 4th and 6 on his 42 - not against the rules - but would have never happened ever in the nfl... To his credit - HE NEVER BROKE A RULE - but i think every1 would agree that a play like that in the 1st half (regardless of score differentials) - IS CHZ... unfdortunately for me - this lead to a score and was the difference in the game

Its frusturating to lose a game b/c of CHZ - but even more FRUSTURATING WHNE A BAD RULE CONDONES IT - lets fix this broken rule...
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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by ezweightloss on Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:06 pm

i think unless it's the second half you shouldn't ever go for it on more than 4th and 2 outside your opponents 40.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by surfnturf90 on Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:13 pm

i agree with ez. teams in the nfl are punting 99 times out of 100 if its 4th down and they aren't inside their opponents 40 in the first half, there's no reason for any of us to go for it in those situations.
(i made that number up, but i can't imagine its much higher than that.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by jmojsoski on Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:33 pm

So you guys labe someone a chz for playing buy the rules..lol
Now ask yourself this, why do NFL teams punt the ball from that down and distance? Is it because it's right? Or could it be that, If they gambled and failed they would have consequnces for their actions meaning they would get fired, also they would have to deal with fan and media scrutiny... Now those of us who play madden do not have to deal with such srcunity, so we can make those choices...
So now begs my second question..

What is a chz, someone who plays by the rules or someone who plays as an NFL team would?
Answer this question careful because, if you answer the latter, someone who plays like an NFL team would then, are we allowed to kick onsides kicks at the half like the saints? Can we run no huddle like manning and the colts? Can we run the same plays using different formantioms like mike shannan does with Washington?

My final thoughts, calling some a chz is a complete judgement call, because there isn't a clear cut definition on what is a chz player? So that tells me, you can call anyone a chz eventhough they didnt break the rules, simply because you disagree with there decision making..
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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by falconfansince81 on Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:06 pm

i think of cheese as anything that exploits the poor programming in madden, i.e. rocket catching, ior's and qb sprint outs tossing it 30 yards from the backfield across their body since players in zone follow the qb more than their assignment ALWAYS leaving the sidelines open. i really wouldn't consider playcalling cheesy, to me what makes someone cheesy is what they are doing to exploit the ai not whether or not someone wants to gamble on 4th and whatever or go for 2 to win the game.
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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by ezweightloss on Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:10 am

we didn't call anyone a cheezer (or atleast i didn't) i was just thinking that a rule adjustment would be nice.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by Vista3131 on Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:38 am

Here we go again, they punt because of the odds (Risk vs Reward). In the nfl a 3rd and 6 is converted only 41 % of the time. Then realize that even if they make it they are still only at the 50 yard line and again are not guarenteed of scoring. Now in Madden I would bet that, myself on 3rd and 10 or more I convert 70% of the time.

6 http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d80ae2bf7/article/firstdown-success-is-the-key-to-thirddown-conversions

Also when a team punts from there it puts the other team in bad field position where there is a better then avarage chance that you can stop the other team from completing a successful scoring drive.

So very simply put if your on your opponents 45 yard line you have a 4th and 2 you have a 50/50 chance of making a first down. But if you punt you have your opponent start inside his own 20 the probability of you opponent scoring decreases significantly then if he starts at your 45. So punting is a very easy choice it has NOTHING TO DO WITH FAN, OWNER and MEDIA REACTION it is all about the odds.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by jmojsoski on Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:08 pm

" NOTHING TO DO WITH FAN, OWNER and MEDIA REACTION it is all about the odds." Are you an NFL coach? NO, so, you don't know is the Fan Owner or Media Reaction as anything to do with it. I was just supplying an alternative point of view.. YOU DON'T NO IT ALL? OR DO?

YOU CAN TRY TO SHOOT DOWN MY OPINION WITH THOSE STATS, HOWEVER, THE SIMPLY FACT IS YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT GOES ON IN A COACH'S MIND..

Last thing,
Did you watch the MNF game were the Broncos took on the Chargers. In the very first quarter the Chargers, did a fake punt pass. What are the odds of that being successful? Can you justify it with numbers, how that was a good decision? Yea there were successful, however, why did the coach make such rare decision, a decision many of you would call unsim, if it was done to you in madden? Do you know why the coach that decision?

Can you answer my questions?
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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by ezweightloss on Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:39 pm

jmo just like vista can't know everything for sure, neither can you. none of us are nfl coaches, so let's leave it at that and stop knit picking, we are just trying to make the GAME a better experience for everyone

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by Child_Please4285 on Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:02 pm

when it all comes down to it some ppl would go for it some wouldn't, if you go for it its not cheeze just like if you punt your not necessarily a sim person it just a different style and decision making of the coach while the punt rule is my favorite rule we can't take but so much decision making from the players on wanting to gamble sometimes
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AT THE RATE THIS IS GOING

Post by saastar on Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:14 pm

IT SOUNDS LIKE ALL THE DAMN RULES NEED TO BE LOOKED OVER AND ADJUSTED AND EVERYTHING ELSE!!! U GOT THE PUNT RULE NOW BEING BROUGHT UP BY GREEN... WHICH I HAVE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH ANYONE IN ANY GAME ABOUT PUNTING... I MORE OR LESS LET HIM DECIDE IF HE WANTS TO TAKE THE RISK OR NOT OR IF HE IS ON HIS ON SIDE OF THE FIELD HE WILL PUNT... THEN U HAVE CHEEDAH_CHEESE AND OTHERS SAYING WE NEED TO HAVE AN QB SUB RULE.. THEN I SAY THE RULES NEED TO BE CLEARIFIED FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO DONT READ THE RULES OR KNOW THEM... AND I HAVE ALSO SEEN SOME OTHER TOPICS IN THIS DISCUSSION SAYING SOMETHING ABOUT AN RULE CHANGE.. SO AT THIS RATE ALL THE DAMN RULES NEEDS TO BE LOOKED OVER AND CHANGED OR SOME ADDED OR ADJUSTED... LOL

JUST MY THOUGHTS...

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by G-Villa809 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:12 pm

My opinion on this matter is if if your going to gamble on 4th and 6 .1. It should be on a fake 2.down in the score .keeping in mind punt rule is one of the best rules in sim play.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:15 am

its kinda hard to say wats sim on this, im just saying the Kansas City Chiefs have been gutsy all year on 4th down on any part of the field. i even seen them go for it 4th & 3 on their side

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by bigbuddah on Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:10 am

ima add in my .02 on this. i honestly feel like to stop someone on 3rd down on this game without it being a pick or fumble is amazing and should be rewarded. ive played games where it would be 4th and 4 and just because they were past their 40 and they would go for it. and on 3rd and 10 they threw something short to make going for it on 4th down a lil easier. they did this everytime they would pass their own 40 just because the rules are relaxed about it.

if your not inside your opponents 5 yardline, u shouldnt be able to go for it.

unless the game is close in the 4th and going for it on 4th will keep your drive alive or clinch the win u can go for it anywhere.

if down by 21+ points anytime in the game u can go for it anywhere.

thats simple to me. if it doesnt fit this criteria punt the football. i understand 4th and inches its up to the players. if your really aggressive or play smart.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by Vista3131 on Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:31 am

I am going to agree with BUDDAH 100% When you are tied or leading the game and it is 4th and 2 or more you must kick the ball PERIOD. When you are trailing then the current rules should be invoked!

As far as the question about it being sim...remember we are not dealing with the same pecentages that they do in real football much easier to gain ground on Madden then it is in the NFL.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by Dlew16 on Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:48 am

You should ALWAYS be able to go for it idc if your on the one and it's 4th and 100 if you think you can make it then go ahead that's what coaching is!!!! A lot of people in the madden group disagree with me. I very rarely speak much in forums but I had to say something about this. The rules that prevent people from taking risks should be removed period! Idc that madden is offense based. There shouldn't be a punishment for taking a risks.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by Vista3131 on Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:12 am

The problem Dlew is that by going for it on fourth down your not really taking a risk, the odds are in your favor that you will convert that is the problem.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by made2shine on Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:26 am

I agree pretty much with what everyone is saying about punt rule anything pass 4th and 2 should be automatic punt if your on your own side of field now if you are on your opponents side I believe there are instances where going for it makes sense. I've been in instance wwhere I was right on edge of feild goal range but connection was not the best, so it made me a little apprehensive bout kicking it was a 4th and 2 and I missed due totge connection being poor. In hindsight I would of prolly went for it that being said if u go for it in those instance s you should have a logically reasaon for doing so and be prepared to dfwnd your stance if called upon to do sol
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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by Dlew16 on Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:35 pm

Vista3131 wrote:The problem Dlew is that by going for it on fourth down your not really taking a risk, the odds are in your favor that you will convert that is the problem.
So? All that means is higher scoring games and of you don't convert and it's on your side then you probably just gave up a score I've stopped teams plenty of times 3rd and 2 the odds of you making the conversion are like 80% but I think it's still a risk because of the consequence when it doesn't work.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by falconfansince81 on Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:53 pm

made2shine wrote:I agree pretty much with what everyone is saying about punt rule anything pass 4th and 2 should be automatic punt if your on your own side of field now if you are on your opponents side I believe there are instances where going for it makes sense. I've been in instance wwhere I was right on edge of feild goal range but connection was not the best, so it made me a little apprehensive bout kicking it was a 4th and 2 and I missed due totge connection being poor. In hindsight I would of prolly went for it that being said if u go for it in those instance s you should have a logically reasaon for doing so and be prepared to dfwnd your stance if called upon to do sol

and in instances like our game in greener 2 league where it was a shootout back n forth (i think you had 700 passing yards? lol) it might be our best interest to go for it simply because the tempo of the game dictated it an appropriate call so sometimes you HAVE to take into consideration the flow of the game, but if its a close defensive fight there should be very few 4th down attempts if at all. again...it all comes down to madden morals.
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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by GREENERRRR on Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:16 pm

i like that FF - MADDEN MORALES - gonna start sayn that more...
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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:27 am

I think it should stay as is. I think the point is that regardless of WHY NFL coaches rarely go for it on 4th down, we are trying to keep this realistic. So just pretend you're playing real life odds, or you might get fired...whatever it takes for you to see it realistically...and kick the ball when it's 4th and 1 or greater (as outlined by the rule), unless down late in the game or unless you have tried a couple field goals and missed.
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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by mblammers on Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:39 pm

I think the rule is fine as it is.

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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by DEN_24 on Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:13 pm

i agree that the rule needs a little fixing but theres too many ifs and or buts on this one... wtv the case, the more simple the rule, the better... if u have to punt, you have to punt... thats all there is to it... idk how many times ive seen a NFL QB throw his arms up and shake his head in disgust cuz the coach decided to send out the punt team on a 4th & short... well thats the thing, most guys think with a QB mentality and not a head coach mentality...
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Re: 4TH DOWN PUNT RULE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED

Post by tomer629 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:34 pm

jmojsoski wrote:So you guys labe someone a chz for playing buy the rules..lol
Now ask yourself this, why do NFL teams punt the ball from that down and distance? Is it because it's right? Or could it be that, If they gambled and failed they would have consequnces for their actions meaning they would get fired, also they would have to deal with fan and media scrutiny... Now those of us who play madden do not have to deal with such srcunity, so we can make those choices...
So now begs my second question..

What is a chz, someone who plays by the rules or someone who plays as an NFL team would?
Answer this question careful because, if you answer the latter, someone who plays like an NFL team would then, are we allowed to kick onsides kicks at the half like the saints? Can we run no huddle like manning and the colts? Can we run the same plays using different formantioms like mike shannan does with Washington?

My final thoughts, calling some a chz is a complete judgement call, because there isn't a clear cut definition on what is a chz player? So that tells me, you can call anyone a chz eventhough they didnt break the rules, simply because you disagree with there decision making..

Very well put jmo

I agree 100%

I think the 4th down rule is perfect as it is. No need to make it more complicated, enough people cant understand it now in its simple form. It prevents the other guy from going for it on every 4th down, but still allows some flexiblity and strategy.

I personally will tend to go for it on 4th down more vs a player with a good offense. I figure if he has a dominant Offense then his is gonna score from anywhere on the field anyway, so why should I care about field position? And if he has a dominant offense then I also cannot afford to not score on my own drive, or risk going down 2 scores. Against a player with a weaker offense that I know I can stop, I would be more likely to punt and try to pin him deep in his own territory.

Its not that unrealistic to go for 4th and 3 or so from the 50 yd line, I have seen it in the 1st half of NFL games this year. Coaches in the NFL are getting more and more agressive every year and they are seeing that the conservative strategies of the past dont always fit the new higher scoring game.


So i repeat, I think the current rule is perfect, and see no reason to change it now after it has worked for almost 2 years now.

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