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cheeze and safeties

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cheeze and safeties

Post by ezweightloss on Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:21 pm

i was ready the recent post about cheezers saw people becoming very upset with the lack of integrity that is being experienced recently. personally i am in now 8 of the franchises of the madden group. i very rarely run in to a straight cheezer. yeah every once in a while there are fluke plays but we can't be getting all butthurt about them. and ofcourse you are gonna see "money plays" in the last two minutes when the game is on the line, but if you don't run those plays more then 10% then it's legal. i like to save my best plays for the end of a game too. and as far as playcalling goes, i have an idea that would eliminate this, and that is using "gameflow" and i hate gameflow but it would limit players extorting ai. there wouldn't really be a way to monitor this though. and people could still use hot routes and audibles which might just lead to more of similar plays but idk. just an idea.

my second topic is safeties at and near the line of scrimmage.. remember last year when the rule was made the we couldn't bring lineman off the los because it confused ai? well bringing a safety up do the same thing. i used to use my left end as a linebacker, and without using nano blitzes would demolish the run, with opponents averaging less like 35 yards a game. and now my run defense is still pretty solid but not beast like use to be. both in part to not being able to use that formation and having to commit so much more to the pass with the horrible secondary play that has come with madden 11. i understood the fact that this is a sim group so i changed to accomadate the rules. so why is that safeties can creep around the los, make a o-line commit to blocking them then drop back into coverage. which adds so much more pressure. it's almost like a nano blitz without having to blitz. it also limits the run game to an unrealistic point. this defense makes it so you can run or pass the ball effectively. there is no such defense in real life. so i would make a hard long look at this and think about getting some votes on it and getting it in the rule book.

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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by tomer629 on Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:37 pm

Im confused about what you are actually proposing. Are you talking about people taking the FS and bringing him near the line? or the SS?

The SS is near the line in a lot of formations (4-6 being the most common), and if you show blitz he usually creeps up too. This is also seen a lot in real NFL. The SS is always the "8th man in the box" when teams stack the box to stop the run.

Ill admit I have been baited into throwing picks by some good players (cough... cheddah) who user the FS and bring him up near the line, and then drop him back into coverage. But for the most part if I see someone bring that FS up im going deep and its usually a completion. Some people have awesome user skills with the FS, but I wouldnt call that cheese its just something I need to play better and overcome. Baiting people into picks by making you think your WR is open when he isnt is smart play in my book, not cheese.

How is this different than showing blitz with a LB and having him drop into coverage? How does it confuse the AI any more or less. I guess what im saying is: if a FS can creep around and make the Oline commit to blocking him before dropping into coverage, then why couldnt a LB do the same thing? Of course people should only be moving 1 defensive player presnap, so the only place to go after that is to say you cant move ANYONE presnap, and I dont think anyone wants that.

Not disagreeing with you just trying to add some input and figure out exactly what you think is cheese and what you would do to stop it.

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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by ezweightloss on Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:51 pm

in the nfl also many lineman come off the los but we have deemed that illegal. and that is basically the same concept as confusing the ai. and idk y but a safeties confuse the ai alot more than an lb. idk y because i have no knowledge of the game's programming. if safeties are allowed to do this then i do not understand why i can't use my lineman for the same thing.

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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by falconfansince81 on Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:54 pm

did u see what the skins were running vs peyton? lol..imagine if we did that in madden? good lord the complaints would fly...it'd be the 1-5-5 nightmare all over again. i run the 46 too and sometimes when my fs is in man to the rb he will creep up on his own, i don't move him tho unless man align is broken for that play. the gameflow concept i can't go with cause i hate everything about gameflow and think even less of ea for pawning that ask madden bullshit on us as a 'feature'.
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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by PaPZ187 on Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:07 pm

What do you guys mean by moving linemen? Are you talking about the TE?
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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by Rui_F on Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:22 pm

D linemen its in the rules no manual movement or setting up more then one guy trying to confuse the oline.....

And EZ I know what your talking about some guys on here like to manually bring the Safety forward then as soon as the play starts they hit the switch button and go to a LB or linemen. If its a run the safety is at the line of scrimmage and cpu takes over for the kill, if its a pass unless you got a quick decent receiver in the slot or if the guy has fast corners the safety is in position to intercept quick passes of gets time to run back and get into a deep position. On some occasions the Oline see this as a threat of blitz and assigns a blocker, meaning one of your linemen is also out of position to block anybody that actually is coming in on a blitz.


Last edited by Rui_F on Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:34 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by PaPZ187 on Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:25 pm

Ok I gotcha, I thought they were talking about OLinemen for a minute lol damn I need a day off, I'm done
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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by Cheddah_Cheez on Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:56 pm

Wow, I didn't know all this. I like to move around as the safety, especially if I smell run, and if I'm wrong I drop back in coverage...but it's ALL user. I had no idea about that CPU switch move, EZ. You've played me before and that's not something I do. That is pretty weak that people do that though, but I'm not suprised at all. I rarely see Lineman coming off the line pre-snap in the NFL though, not unless they're shifting the line to confuse the offense. Even if I knew how to do it or knew what it looked like, I doubt I could come up with a way for us to police it that would ever work. My only suggestion is to do what people do to me, send a guy over top a couple times and force me to stay back there. Or try running the other way. Or try motioning an extra blocker to that side.

Believe me, I get that the fact that so many people here try to find ways to tiptoe around, bend, break, disregard, etc. the rules we put in place is lame, but if it isn't something that is insanely broken, like IOR's good luck trying to get people to stop. I would like to see footage of what you mean though because I'm sure players have been using it against me and crushing my run game. Or at least I'd like to hope that's why I went from 2nd team all-pro rushing to barely getting 50yds a game
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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by GREENERRRR on Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:11 pm

ezweightloss wrote:
my second topic is safeties at and near the line of scrimmage.. remember last year when the rule was made the we couldn't bring lineman off the los because it confused ai? well bringing a safety up do the same thing. i used to use my left end as a linebacker, and without using nano blitzes would demolish the run, with opponents averaging less like 35 yards a game. and now my run defense is still pretty solid but not beast like use to be. both in part to not being able to use that formation and having to commit so much more to the pass with the horrible secondary play that has come with madden 11. i understood the fact that this is a sim group so i changed to accomadate the rules. so why is that safeties can creep around the los, make a o-line commit to blocking them then drop back into coverage. which adds so much more pressure. it's almost like a nano blitz without having to blitz. it also limits the run game to an unrealistic point. this defense makes it so you can run or pass the ball effectively. there is no such defense in real life. so i would make a hard long look at this and think about getting some votes on it and getting it in the rule book.


Safety play that u are describing is a HIGH RISK - HIGH REWARD situation... sure bringing safeties into the boX (AND CLOSE TO los) - is going to help stop the run BUT - if a RB gets to the 2nd level - ITS A TD (if he has avg oir better speed) - that is because the safety is the 3rd level defender - and he has vacated his responsibility///

I think i am the best person to speak on this topic - I am 1 of the most prolific runners in the group - (BUT I CANT PASS WORTH A DAM - AND THAT 90% OF MADDEN!)... I truely look forward to seeing Safeties close to the LOS - i KNOWI WILL GET THAT HUGE GAINER - eventually!!! (and i would imagine if you are a STRONG PASSER - adjuments like that are not gonna be worth a dam!!!)...- playn safeties close to LOS also opens up PLAY ACTION OPPORTUNITIES AS WELL...
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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by PaPZ187 on Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:14 pm

GREENERRRR wrote:
ezweightloss wrote:
my second topic is safeties at and near the line of scrimmage.. remember last year when the rule was made the we couldn't bring lineman off the los because it confused ai? well bringing a safety up do the same thing. i used to use my left end as a linebacker, and without using nano blitzes would demolish the run, with opponents averaging less like 35 yards a game. and now my run defense is still pretty solid but not beast like use to be. both in part to not being able to use that formation and having to commit so much more to the pass with the horrible secondary play that has come with madden 11. i understood the fact that this is a sim group so i changed to accomadate the rules. so why is that safeties can creep around the los, make a o-line commit to blocking them then drop back into coverage. which adds so much more pressure. it's almost like a nano blitz without having to blitz. it also limits the run game to an unrealistic point. this defense makes it so you can run or pass the ball effectively. there is no such defense in real life. so i would make a hard long look at this and think about getting some votes on it and getting it in the rule book.


Safety play that u are describing is a HIGH RISK - HIGH REWARD situation... sure bringing safeties into the boX (AND CLOSE TO los) - is going to help stop the run BUT - if a RB gets to the 2nd level - ITS A TD (if he has avg oir better speed) - that is because the safety is the 3rd level defender - and he has vacated his responsibility///

I think i am the best person to speak on this topic - I am 1 of the most prolific runners in the group - (BUT I CANT PASS WORTH A DAM - AND THAT 90% OF MADDEN!)... I truely look forward to seeing Safeties close to the LOS - i KNOWI WILL GET THAT HUGE GAINER - eventually!!! (and i would imagine if you are a STRONG PASSER - adjuments like that are not gonna be worth a dam!!!)...- playn safeties close to LOS also opens up PLAY ACTION OPPORTUNITIES AS WELL...

I agree Greener, I am more of a runner than a passer as well, although I like to mix it up here and there to try to keep the D of balance. Having a S in the box can help run support or can rush the passer, but it is HIGH RISK/HIGH REWARD as a solid run up the middle and BAM he is gone. Also, you can audible, and send a WR deep looking for 1 on 1 coverage for a big play.

Perfect Example - I was playing a game in the CPU Draft Lg the other night, and I was bringing my FS up in the box. First play, he audibles and goes deep on me, thankfully he just missed his WR or it was a TD. So after that I was much more careful bring the FS in the box, and when I did I would mix up blitz, drop back in short zone or deep zone to try to keep him guessing.

I have no idea about the oline glitches that are talked about, but I know in the NFL a lot of players try to fake a blitz to bait the OLine into pulling towards one side to protect, so other blitzers from the weak side can get a 1 on 1 match up, Rex Ryan does that a lot. He shows a lot of pressure, and he does blitz 7-8 a good amount of the time, but he also usually drops half the side in coverage and just rushes the other half, trying to get good pressure with only 4-5 rushers from one side.

Once again, I don't know what this glitch is or how it works, just pointing out it is done in the NFL quite a bit to try and keep the OLine guessing where the pressure is coming from.
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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by ezweightloss on Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:51 pm

i know all safeties near the los are not exploiting ai. i am specifically referring to user controlled safeties that are brought up by the user. after the snap they run forward as to blitz. an o line commits to blocking them even though they are 5 yards away and then safety drops back. this mixed with a blitz leads to a quick sack or a forced pass that usually doesnt have good results. and in the case of the d-lineman i was speaking on teams that run 3-4 sometimes bring an elite pass rusher into a 3 point stance. i.e. demarcus ware, james harrison, shawn merriman, etc. then after lining up in a for point stance they go to a 2 point stance etc

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Re: cheeze and safeties

Post by Rui_F on Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:40 am

The way it works is rather simple, the AI controls anybody who you are not controlling. Believe it or not your opponents AI knows what play you called and vise versa and adjust accordingly, it knows what guys are supposed to blitz and what guys are going to drop back. From I can tell it was EA's attempt at stopping the rampant abuse of AI with nano blitzes, it was their way of making the Oline smarter. Now the X factor is the manually controlled player. In this case a Safety. The play might have the safety in deep coverage and if you use the pre play show blitz and you are NOT controlling the safety the AI does not adjust to the safety because it does not see it as a threat, BUT if you are controlling the safety the AI drops into worst case scenario and that seems to be making sure that a blocker is assigned to you even if it means pulling one off a player that is maybe blitzing from the outside because you happen to be closer to the QB at play start.

Now does this always happen, no it doesn't madden AI is funny and sometimes it just makes shit up. But if someone labs this enough times and gets there timing down pretty good then when playing a comparable apponent just like a good money play on offense it can make the difference between a 6 point loss or a 1 point win.
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